AggroChat #172 – The Destiniest Destiny

Featuring: Ashgar, Belghast, Grace, Kodra, Tamrielo and Thalen

aggrochat172_720

Tonight we have a bunch of stuff on the docket.  We lead off with a discussion about Pax West 2017 that Tam, Kodra and Ashgar attended last weekend.  From there we dive into some discussion about the Destiny 2 PS4 launch and how it has been consuming every moment of Bel’s game time.  Another big accomplishment is that our Guild in Guild Wars 2 successfully captured the Guild Hall…  and have unlocked a completely engrossing minigame in the form of upgrading it.  We delve a bit into the mobile game Legendary Game of Heroes, and then veer off the deep end into some discussion about Sonic Mania and the Sonic Archie Comics.  The insanity that follows continued long after the podcast… and ultimately had a bunch of us leaving the channel to avoid it.  Lastly we talk a bit about Magic the Gathering Arena, their attempt to capture that Hearthstone goodness with actual magic cards.

Topics Discussed

  • Pax West 2017
  • Destiny 2 PS4
  • Guild Wars 2 Guild Hall
  • Legendary Game of Heroes
  • Sonic Mania
  • Sonic Comics
  • Magic the Gathering Arena

Learning Through Play: Competition

When’s the last time you played a multiplayer game that was purely cooperative? There aren’t many of them. Almost all of the ones I can think of and find also set you and your team against another entity of some form. Oftentimes, as in games like Divinity: Original Sin, Left4Dead, almost all MMOs, and similar, that entity is an explicit opposing force– some great monster or enemy faction or villain of some flavor. In other cases (as in a game like Mansions of Madness, Pandemic, or The Secret World), the opposing entity is more vague, an unknown that you have to give shape to before fighting.

Consider that these are the cooperative games, the ones in which you are ostensibly working together. They’re structured to create for you an enemy to fight against, and when one isn’t immediately apparent, to create one. Even cooperative games are often focused around creating adversarial relationships, and it’s generally more important that you beat the enemy than help your friends.

What does this teach us?

Well, judging from the obsession with it in storytelling, it teaches us that heroic sacrifices are some kind of ideal, rather than a costly pyrrhic victory. “Go on without me”, the doomed movie hero claims, often attempting to redeem an extended series of flagrantly awful behaviors with a single ostensibly noble act.

It teaches us that the fight is more important than the team— it should come as no surprise that teamplay games such as MOBAs have such incredibly toxic communities– the games themselves incentivize victory over teamwork, to the point where a flagging team member is a target for derision, because they “bringing everyone down”, rather than an opportunity to work together.

It teaches us to identify opponents before identifying allies, and often to distrust allies, who by some quirk of AI or differing tactics or player skill are unreliable unknowns. If there is no opponent, we create one.

Likely half of you are rolling your eyes and saying this is an overreaction; the other half are nodding along. What fascinates me about this kind of thing is that it has very clear parallels elsewhere. There’s a chicken-and-egg argument about whether games are a reflection of real world mindsets or if the real world mindsets are what create games (to wit: why are so many games about violence? is it because we are violent and games are an outlet, or are we encouraged to be more violent and games reflect that taste for violence?). I think this is a false dichotomy– the two feed one another.

I talked with someone years ago who genuinely could not understand why someone would play a singleplayer game. “There are no opponents, you’re just playing against the computer,” he told me, “how does that not get boring?” The idea that you might play a game for some reason other than establishing dominance among other human opponents was entirely out of his comfort zone. That kind of thinking isn’t inherent, it’s learned– he got heavily into MMOs for the PvP and now plays exclusively PvE raids. The hops were fairly straightforward: solo deathmatching -> team deathmatching -> team objective-based PvP -> team objective-based PvP with progression -> team objective-based PvP with progression tied to PvE -> team PvP in parallel with team PvE -> team PvE supported by solo progression.

Each step along his path taught her about some new behavioral pattern, until his behavior changed entirely. Remembering our previous conversation, I pointed him at DayZ, only to hear him tell me that he didn’t like DayZ because it was “too oppositional”. Something of a surprise coming from someone who, only a few years before, suggested that a game wasn’t worthwhile if you weren’t fighting against other humans.

I think the heavily competitive focus of games — be it against other players or against the game itself —  also teaches us to define ourselves by how we face opposition. It’s an interesting bit of identity generation, because it goes a layer deeper and teaches us to look for opposition so that we can define ourselves by how we face it.

It’s something I catch myself doing a lot– it’s very easy to see real-world situations as us-vs-them because both “us” and “them” are deeply trained to look for opposing forces. When none exist, they’re created, and you see coalitions disband and groups succumb to infighting.

At the same time, when an opposing force does surface, we come together rapidly and effectively, because it gives us an opportunity to define ourselves.

I wonder, then– what if games taught us to define ourselves in other ways? It’s hard for me not to think of Bioware RPGs here, with the sheer amount of fanfic and fanart inspired by a game that often downplays “fighting the threat” in favor of “hanging out with your friends”. I can’t help but wonder what we might look like as a community if those sorts of games were the majority, not the minority.

Learning Through Play: Competition

When’s the last time you played a multiplayer game that was purely cooperative? There aren’t many of them. Almost all of the ones I can think of and find also set you and your team against another entity of some form. Oftentimes, as in games like Divinity: Original Sin, Left4Dead, almost all MMOs, and similar, that entity is an explicit opposing force– some great monster or enemy faction or villain of some flavor. In other cases (as in a game like Mansions of Madness, Pandemic, or The Secret World), the opposing entity is more vague, an unknown that you have to give shape to before fighting. Consider that these are the cooperative games, the ones in which you are ostensibly working together. They’re structured to create for you an enemy to fight against, and when one isn’t immediately apparent, to create one. Even cooperative games are often focused around creating adversarial relationships, and it’s generally more important that you beat the enemy than help your friends. What does this teach us? Well, judging from the obsession with it in storytelling, it teaches us that heroic sacrifices are some kind of ideal, rather than a costly pyrrhic victory. “Go on without me”, the doomed movie hero claims, often attempting to redeem an extended series of flagrantly awful behaviors with a single ostensibly noble act. It teaches us that the fight is more important than the team— it should come as no surprise that teamplay games such as MOBAs have such incredibly toxic communities– the games themselves incentivize victory over teamwork, to the point where a flagging team member is a target for derision, because they “bringing everyone down”, rather than an opportunity to work together. It teaches us to identify opponents before identifying allies, and often to distrust allies, who by some quirk of AI or differing tactics or player skill are unreliable unknowns. If there is no opponent, we create one. Likely half of you are rolling your eyes and saying this is an overreaction; the other half are nodding along. What fascinates me about this kind of thing is that it has very clear parallels elsewhere. There’s a chicken-and-egg argument about whether games are a reflection of real world mindsets or if the real world mindsets are what create games (to wit: why are so many games about violence? is it because we are violent and games are an outlet, or are we encouraged to be more violent and games reflect that taste for violence?). I think this is a false dichotomy– the two feed one another. I talked with someone years ago who genuinely could not understand why someone would play a singleplayer game. “There are no opponents, you’re just playing against the computer,” he told me, “how does that not get boring?” The idea that you might play a game for some reason other than establishing dominance among other human opponents was entirely out of his comfort zone. That kind of thinking isn’t inherent, it’s learned– he got heavily into MMOs for the PvP and now plays exclusively PvE raids. The hops were fairly straightforward: solo deathmatching -> team deathmatching -> team objective-based PvP -> team objective-based PvP with progression -> team objective-based PvP with progression tied to PvE -> team PvP in parallel with team PvE -> team PvE supported by solo progression. Each step along his path taught her about some new behavioral pattern, until his behavior changed entirely. Remembering our previous conversation, I pointed him at DayZ, only to hear him tell me that he didn’t like DayZ because it was “too oppositional”. Something of a surprise coming from someone who, only a few years before, suggested that a game wasn’t worthwhile if you weren’t fighting against other humans. I think the heavily competitive focus of games — be it against other players or against the game itself —  also teaches us to define ourselves by how we face opposition. It’s an interesting bit of identity generation, because it goes a layer deeper and teaches us to look for opposition so that we can define ourselves by how we face it. It’s something I catch myself doing a lot– it’s very easy to see real-world situations as us-vs-them because both “us” and “them” are deeply trained to look for opposing forces. When none exist, they’re created, and you see coalitions disband and groups succumb to infighting. At the same time, when an opposing force does surface, we come together rapidly and effectively, because it gives us an opportunity to define ourselves. I wonder, then– what if games taught us to define ourselves in other ways? It’s hard for me not to think of Bioware RPGs here, with the sheer amount of fanfic and fanart inspired by a game that often downplays “fighting the threat” in favor of “hanging out with your friends”. I can’t help but wonder what we might look like as a community if those sorts of games were the majority, not the minority.

The Shader Situation

The Shader Situation

Yesterday I briefly mentioned the issue happening right now with Shaders, but I had a few people ask me directly what exactly was going on.  So I thought I would take a moment this morning to explain the issue from my perspective.  In the original Destiny Shaders were an item that dropped that when applied effected the color scheme and sometimes physical properties of your armor.  It was a purely cosmetic system, but one that the players latched onto with both hands.  The Shaders themselves dropped from all manner of activities and occasionally were attached to achievements.  This happened with enough relative rarity that when you got one…  you noticed and immediately started playing with it.  Each Guardian could carry a total of nine shaders with them at any given time… and I personally found myself swapping back and forth between shaders on a regular basis to fit my current mood or to coordinate which whatever  weapon loadout I happened to be rocking that night.  To say I was engaged in the system is probably a bit of an understatement given that I had 103 of them according to the achievement that tracks such progress.  I was by no means the most prolific however because there were folks in game who had literally every single one… and you can see in the above photo… the ones that are greyed out are ones I had not found yet.  The system itself was pretty limited and some shaders looked good on some armor sets…  but absolutely horrible on others.  However it was something that gave us some license to stand out in the tower from the other Guardians also wearing Iron Banner gear.

The Shader Situation

With the lead up to Destiny 2 there was so much talk about how improved the Shader system was going to be.  It was announced that we would be able to apply shaders individually to armor pieces and even our weapons.  As a long time supporter of cosmetic systems this seemed amazing, because it would finally give us some level of granular control over our appearance.  In Destiny 1 it was annoying when your chest-piece looked amazing with a specific shader applied, but your boots or arms looked completely horrible.  This was especially true when rocking the various combinations of black and white like I regularly did…  and it would have allowed us to swap around until we found a specific shader that worked for each individual item.  While playing the “Demo” I found it curiously lacking that they didn’t show off the new shader system, but given this was a build of game originally shown at E3 I thought maybe it was simply left out because the system had not been finished at that point.  It was not until launch that we actually saw the system at work…  and realized that shaders were not a single use consumable item.  The above image is of my shader “collection” in Destiny 2, and all of these so far have come through the starter packages that you keep getting handed by the Eververse vendor at the Farm each time you reach a specific level plateau.  Why the community is going to war over this minor point is the fact that Bungie took what used to be a very good but limited system… and turned it into a potential cash grab.

The Shader Situation

Yesterday Luke Smith released a sequence of statements on his Twitter account talking about the issue…  and the answer feels less than satisfactory.  Luke is literally the only person who thinks that doing “shader farming” is a good idea.  That sounds miserable especially when it means that you now somehow need to rope five of your friends to follow you down a rabbit hole just so you can have pretty armor for the week.  It is hard enough to convince people to run old school World of Warcraft raids when only transmog items are on the line…  let alone run a 2-3 hour long Destiny raid that never really trivializes…  for armor paint.  Now up until this statement I was taking a wait and see approach and in part I still am.  I noticed that all of the planet faction NPCs had shaders on their loot table that you can get from engrams.  Maybe as he says as we start to grind faction we will be swimming in armor spray paint, but more than likely there is still going to be a sizable number of shaders that are only available through bright engrams.  Bright engrams for reference are the new RNG loot box that the Eververse sells for Silver.  Right now the equivalent conversion rate is $5 to 3 Bright Engrams… and while these drop organically each time you fill up your xp bar again post level 20… that is going to be a less than enjoyable grind to get them.  While I have not actually opened an actual Bright Engram, I have been opening the assorted packages that Eververse gives you in the farm and through those I have received a bunch of shaders enough to make me think that this is going to be the easier way to get them.

The Shader Situation

As of last night I hit 15 and probably will push through to 20 tonight, so I should start to see this supposed increased shader drop rate shortly.  What is frustrating to me is that everything else about the game is really amazing.  However that amazing is slightly tarnished by the fact that I know one of my favorite systems has turned into something I looked forward to using…  to something I will probably hoard and never actually use.  You change out gear in Destiny constantly… and even on my maximum light cap 400 characters in the original game…  I was regularly tweaking and fiddling with my build out each time I got some new interesting piece of loot.  There is never going to be a point where you can set your armor selection in stone, knowing that you will likely never get something that works better for you.  Each patch Bungie tweaks this or that making it likely that you are going to be swapping gear our to optimize whatever you happen to be going for this week.  There is never going to be a point where you have enough of your favorite shaders…  nor will you have the freedom to swap them around at will just to do silly things like have everyone raiding in Glowhoo or that hideous McDonald’s looking shader.  Shaders were fun and one of those few non-gear rewards that you loved seeing at the end of a Crucible match or after a strike.  Gone are the days when you cannot wait to try on the new shader you just got to see what it looks like.  Now instead it is going to be a stack in your inventory that keeps going up in number…  but you still feel like you maybe shouldn’t use yet because there is a really awesome item waiting around the corner that you might want it for.  So that in a nutshell is the situation with shaders and why the Destiny 1 player base is frustrated by it.